Sian Heder made the right call. She could have stayed in Los Angeles to attend the Critics Choice Awards where she was nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay for “CODA,” but instead, she went with one of her nominated actors, Troy Kotsur, to London for the 2022 BAFTA Awards, where she was nominated in the same category. A few days later, both she and Kotsur hand-carried their new BAFTA Awards through Heathrow airport back to the United States. Considering someone else won the Critics Choice, it was, again, the right call.
READ MORE: Troy Kotsur Is Living A Dream Thanks To ‘CODA’ [Interview]
Heder originally began her career in front of the camera, but over the past decade has made her mark as a writer (“Orange Is The New Black”), producer (“Little America”), and director (“Tallulah”). “CODA,” however, has taken her career to another level. The film took the Grand Jury and Audience prizes at the 2021 Sundance Film Festival and earned a Best Picture nomination last month. Heder also earned her first Oscar nomination in the Adapted Screenplay category and her BAFTA win hints that she might take home an Academy Award too.
With a producing deal now with Apple TV+, Heder is cognizant of not getting pigeonholed into making “another” “CODA.”
“I think if you look at my work on ‘Tallulah’ and ‘Orange Is the New Black’ and ‘Little America’ and ‘CODA,’ there is a tone to my voice that is very specifically me, but that doesn’t mean that tone cannot be applied to all sorts of genres or all sorts of stories,” Heder says. “No, I have a really wide range of projects on my plate, and I’m excited by that because I think you don’t want to keep doing the same thing again and again, and I probably won’t be telling the story of a teenage girl because you want to explore other lived experiences, but I definitely feel like I will always want to represent the underdog and the outsider. And that’s something that’s important to me in my work. And I keep coming back to.”
During our conversation, Heder discussed the challenges of adapting the original French film for English-speaking audiences, why it never went forward at Lionsgate, who she is bringing to the Oscars, and much more.
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The Playlist: Hi Sian, congratulations on your BAFTA.
Sian Heder: Thanks.
I think you made the right choice in going to London instead of staying in Los Angeles for Critics Choice that weekend.
I know, it seemed kind of crazy to go to London for 48 hours, but then it was indeed the right move to make.
Were you able to bring it home? Or do they send it to you weeks from now?
No, they send you home with it. And it’s so heavy, it’s like 20 pounds and I didn’t know what to do except carry it on. And then you feel like such a weirdo walking through Heathrow with your BAFTA. I had it all wrapped up in a gift bag, and Troy [Kotsur, who also won] just walked through Heathrow clutching his BAFTA. He put it through security on the tray.
I spoke to Troy last week and one of the subjects we discussed was premiering at Sundance at the then height of the pandemic in a virtual film festival. Nobody knew if people were going to pay attention or what would happen. Do you remember what you were thinking before the festival and the movie premiered?
I was a mess the day of our premiere and honestly because we had no distributor in place and the movie was a risky movie to make independently. And I knew that we had made something that I loved, that I felt was great and needed to be out in the world, but I didn’t know what that path would be. And the day of our premiere, I remember roaming around my backyard, freaking out because I just thought, I just want one person to buy this movie. And then, of course, it’s so surreal to premiere virtually because there’s no event. I’ve had the experience of premiering my first movie, “Tallulah” at the Eccles, and getting that feeling of walking out on stage and feeling the crowd’s energy. And it’s a totally different thing to share the experience of a movie communally. I just also just know how the movies land with people when they were watching at home alone. And then none of my parents’ friends could work the Sundance app. I think It was the first 15 minutes of my premiere being like tech support for my parents’ app. But then the moment the film ended I looked down at my phone and there were 200 text messages and people were reaching out and [were] moved but it was still a very surreal kind of experience. And then, even the sale and the awards we won at Sundance, there was no in-person celebration. There was no way to be physical with each other. I think I drove over to Marlee [Matlin’s] house the day of the award ceremony, just because I wanted to hug her. And then of course we came out in August and then it was the height of Delta at the time. Our premiere was canceled and I kept thinking, “Are we ever going to watch this film together and be able to celebrate this?” In a way, this whole awards season has been an amazing time to get to connect with my cast and my crew and get to finally celebrate the movie together.
Do you remember getting a message or anything from anyone after it came out on Apple that made you realize, “Oh wow, people are actually seeing this movie beyond Sundance”?
I think it was just, when you’re out in the world and my first movie, “Tallulah,” came out at Sundance and sold and was on Netflix and some people saw it but it was rare to meet someone who knew what I was talking about. There were two moments, one when my cab driver in New York was like, “Oh, I love ‘CODA.’” And the other was just, hearing from people from all over my life and not people I was still in contact with. Friends from kindergarten or parents of people I grew up with. And, I started to realize it wasn’t just reaching the Art House-y, Indie Sundance crowd. It was reaching everybody, and that was a pretty amazing realization.
Going back to the beginning of this journey, what made you want to adapt “La Famille Bélier” for English-speaking audiences?
Well, the rights were at Lionsgate. Philippe Rousselet had produced the original film “La Famille Bélier,” and he and Patrick Wachsberger had teamed up at Lionsgate to do a remake at the studio. And they were looking for a filmmaker, and they really wanted to find someone who was going to find a way to make it their own. And there were things about the original premise that they loved, but they also saw that someone was really going to have to come in with a very specific vision for it to make it feel like its own movie. And so I went in and pitched to them at Lionsgate and the movie was developed at the studio. Then it became really clear through that development process, that the studio was never going to be on board with making the movie the way that I wanted to make it. And eventually, it died at the studio. And then when Patrick left Lionsgate he took the film with him and he and Felipe, through Felipe’s company, Vendôme Pictures and Pathé Films financed the film independently.
What did Lionsgate not want in the movie? Did they want less of the family to be deaf? Did they want more stars?
I think it was a strange movie for Lionsgate to make anyway; it was a small family drama. I think they are a studio that generally makes movies based on IP or has some big, broad, proven commercial viability. And so I think it was a strange film for them to be making, to begin with. And then with my insistence on casting deaf actors in the deaf roles and in casting an unknown as Ruby, because I really wanted someone who was going to learn to sign fluently and put in the work and could act and was the right age, I think it just became in their eyes, an unfinanceable movie and too much of a risk. And look, if I’m looking at it from a pure business perspective, it was utterly execution-based. I don’t know that there was any inherent commercial value in the project. I think it was the fact that the scripts combined with the cast that I was able to put together and the way that we executed the film, I think, created something really special, but I’m not sure that was something you could take to a bank as a proven financial win before we made it.
I’ve read that when you began your adaptation you had two hearing impaired or deaf people who worked with you as consultants. Did you face any skepticism from them, or was there just excitement that anyone wanted to make a movie that would put the deaf community front and center, as opposed to just supporting characters?
I think there was lots of skepticism. I mean, I definitely feel a lot of folks in the deaf community don’t have any reason to trust hearing people. They have been underrepresented and misrepresented for a long time. And so yes, I think of course when someone is coming in, who’s an outsider to the community and there’s a lot of defensive and rightfully so questioning of that person and their intentions. But I think all of that was actually amazing for me and the conversations that I had with many individuals. But many people from the deaf and CODA community pushed back in on the script in an interesting way. And I think it also helped me to make choices in the writing of the script and in the execution of the film that balanced it in a way that felt good for people. I was happy to have the pushback that I did because I think it was an education for me. I didn’t come in knowing everything. I was really clear on what I didn’t know. And I’m very grateful to the people who schooled me along the way because I think it would’ve been a very different movie without those collaborators.
The other interesting aspect of your nomination in the adapted category, it’s very rare for an international film to then be adapted to English and land an Oscar nod. Was there anything in particular that your ASL consultants felt wouldn’t work for an English version of this movie that you had to tackle beyond just the characters?
Honestly, I think it was my desire to just make a very different movie. I think I never read the script for “La Famille Bélier.” I watched the movie once.
Oh, I didn’t realize that.
I used the scenes that stayed with me in my mind that had an impact, or I felt were integral to the story and unlocking elements of it. But it was important to me that this deaf family not feel like side characters there to support this lead who was a hearing person. It was essential in my mind to have each character have a full and complete journey in the film and point of view and voice. That was a big part of my intentions going into the film. And the tone was very different from the original. I think the French film is a broader comedy, and I don’t think there was as much attention paid to portraying ASL on-screen or deaf culture or really exploring the reality of that family. I think there are many beautiful things about that film, but in a way, a lot of the situational comedy was played for a laugh. I think for me, it was just a much deeper story and I was excited to dive into the reality of this family and the tensions within it and the warmth and love but also the dysfunction and codependence.
You’ve now written and directed a number of different genres in both film and television. I know you have a deal with Apple now, and you’ve got a couple of projects in development, but have you had to make sure people realize that’s the case? Or are you feeling pressure to deliver yet another “CODA”?
I’m feeling an open plate.
Good!
I did feel that with my first film, I think when you make one movie, then people think, “Oh, that’s what you do.” I think once you start to have projects under your belt that show that you have a range, I mean, I think people start to understand what my voice is, which is often kind of comedy and emotion living side by side. I think if you look at my work on “Tallulah” and “Orange Is the New Black” and “Little America” and “CODA,” there is a tone to my voice that is very specifically me, but that doesn’t mean that tone cannot be applied to all sorts of genres or all sorts of stories. No, I have a really wide range of projects on my plate. I’m excited by that because I think you don’t want to keep doing the same thing again and again. I probably won’t be telling the story of a teenage girl because you want to explore other lived experiences. Still, I definitely feel like I will always want to represent the underdog and the outsider. And that’s something that’s important to me in my work. And I keep coming back to.
An adaptation of the novel “Being Heumann” is one of the projects you’re attached to. is that your priority at the moment, or are there other things that have grabbed your attention?
I have a few movies that I’m writing and some that I’m overseeing, and then I’m also in a deal with Apple on the television side to develop with them and show running “Little America” as we speak, which is shooting today. We started on episode three so I definitely have a full plate, and I’m juggling quite a few projects, but yeah, I definitely think sometimes it’s about how movies come together and when you get the cast that you want and how long it takes. I think it’s good to have a few projects going. I mean, my first film took nine years to get made. I’m really hoping that doesn’t happen with number three. But I started writing “CODA” in 2016, so this has been a long road too. I think movies take a while and so it’s nice to have different projects that you’re pushing along at the same time.
And just out of curiosity, what are you most excited about going to the Oscars?
I love that I’m bringing my parents and my sister. That’s really fun for me to get to bring them into that world, and they’re the reason I’m an artist, and they’re the reason that I make things and so to share that with them is going to be really special.
“CODA” is available worldwide on Apple TV+.