Today, Wednesday, May 11, as a one-time global event, filmmaker Andrew Dominik’s new documentary on musicians Nick Cave and Warren Ellis, “This Much I Know To Be True,” premieres in select theaters (check the “This Much I Know To Be True” website to see where it’s playing today near you). If Dominik’s last documentary with Cave, “One More Time With Feeling,” was a dark elegy about grief, this new one (read our review here), is much more like a spiritual, nearly gospel-like reverie about healing and the process of acceptance.
Part one of our conversation, dedicated solely to “This Much I Know To Be True,” and Dominik’s work, friendship, and collaboration with Nick Cave is here.
But it was a long, nearly 40-minute conversation, so I wanted to preserve this half of the conversation and not detract from the documentary released this week. In part two of my conversation with Andrew Dominik—though more of a Frankenstein as the original conversation ping-ponged around a little bit—the Australian filmmaker talked about his 2008 movie “The Assassination of Jesse James By The Coward Robert Ford,” it’s longer cut and Criterion’s apparent disinterest in releasing it, his work in TV—David Fincher’s “Mindhunter,” but also a brief flirtation with considering directing episodes of “True Detective” season two—some of the films he tried to make, but couldn’t (Cormac McCarthy’s “Cities Of The Plain”), and of course the film he’s about to finish and release into the world in the fall: “Blonde.”
Starring Ana de Armas as Marilyn Monroe, “Blonde” is a Netflix biopic based on the novel by Joyce Carol Oates. It’s rated NC-17, something Dominik doesn’t think it deserves. Nick Cave and Warren Ellis have scored the film once again and Dominik calls the movie a “dream” about “all the unloved children in the world” and “an extremely lonely film that is a nightmare.” The second half of my conversation with Andrew Dominik is below.
Editors Note before the interview starts: “One More Time With Feeling,” is about the album Skeleton Tree and how it was recorded and finished in the aftermath of Cave losing his 15-year-old son, Arthur. “This Much I Know To Be True” was meant to be something of a celebration of new records Ghosteen and Carnage, but horribly, tragedy struck again a few days ago—Cave’s 31-year-old son Jethro Lazenby died this week, surely casting a pall over the entire proceedings. This is heart-wrenching and we offer our condolences to the family. We just wanted to note that this tragedy happened after we spoke with Dominik therefore isn’t mentioned in either interview.
Speaking of ‘Jesse James,’ so you said in the past and, I believe you said in an interview recently that the Criterion Collection wasn’t interested in releasing a longer version or even a Criterion special edition which feels insane to me.
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. There was this guy a few years back who organized this ‘Jesse James’ revival screening. He tried to interest Criterion and they weren’t interested.
Right, so the longer cut—these legends they grow apocryphal—you recently cut that 4-hour rumor down to size.
Yeah, that’s not true. There was a three-hour-something version of the film, that’s really good. I think the film is like two hours and 40 minutes now, so it’s 15-20 minutes longer. Which is a lot. I mean, I wonder if it even exists anymore, you know? Warner Brothers might have burnt the negative. I mean, they did not like that movie [laughs].
Oh, god, please don’t say that.
But there’s always a longer version of any film. The question is, is the longer version better? Now in the ‘Jesse James’ case? I would say, yes. In “Killing Him Softly” I would say no, you know? There’s a longer version of this new Nick Cave [doc], is it better? No.
So, you know how to kill your darlings.
Well, [pause], that depends on who you talk to [smiles]. I don’t mind a long film. But what I most care about is the people on screen and how do they feel? That’s what gets me interested: sticky, emotional situations. I’m not interested in heists or fucking bags of money or that kind of shit. I’m interested in people who find themselves in difficulties, emotionally speaking. I really like my films from that point of view, but some people don’t go to the movies for that, and they just think it’s people talking. What I dig is emotional situations they’ve never been in or they can’t imagine. I look at ‘Jesse James’ and I think, “wow, that’s the kinda movie I’d love.” But not everyone feels that way.
I assume in “Blonde” you’ll be exploring similar emotional crises then?
Yeah, totally.
Do you have an idea of the length of that, I’m presuming we’ll see it in Venice?
Yeah, yeah, it’ll be in Venice. Well, [laughs], I dunno, it hasn’t gotten in yet, but we like to think it will. [laughs]
I went through our archives and found stories about this in 2012 and it seems like you’ve been working on it for a long time.
Oh yeah, I wrote the script in 2008. Yeah, I’ve been wanting to make it since then.
It’s always been hard for certain films to get made, but with the industry landscape changing, it seems like it’s much easier to get a series made than a movie, at least in the adult drama space, and so was that part of the reason you did “Mindhunter,” to sort of seeing what that world was like?
Well, the reason I wanted to do that was I wanted to go work with David Fincher. I wanted to see how he worked. I’m a big fan of David and I really like him as a person, because he is hilarious. and so, so fucking confident that guy, like amazing. I loved “Mindhunter” and yet, it was very weird to turn up there and walk around the sets because it was kind of like walking around inside your TV. I’d seen the first season of “Mindhunter” a couple of times and then you’re in the [the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit on the show] and it doesn’t look right in three dimensions, you know? [Laughs ]Like you’re inside your iPad or inside your TV somehow. I just kind of wanted to see what it would be like.
There was also a rumor at one point that you were considering directing some “True Detective.”
Yeah, not the first one. It was kind of a situation where—it wasn’t going be like the first season, you know? And it wasn’t. I mean, it’s not really good to talk about stuff you didn’t do and then somebody else did do, it can be kind of mean in a way. Just to be clear, as a director, I do what I can do, people have this sort of false idea that you’ve got a broad array of choices of the kind of material you could do. Like if only I could use my powers for good instead of evil.
If only I could do a “Batman” movie or some shit, like, I’ve got a choice in the matter. The fact of the matter is I can only do what I can do. I look at [certain material] and I think, “I could do that well,” and I look at [other material] and it’s just got no hook in it for me. There’s no emotional connection to it. I just would be bored shitless and I wouldn’t know what to do when I was there because I just don’t care.
Sure, but you kind of generate your own material though, no?
Well, no, it’s usually based on somebody else’s thing. It’s usually based on a book or something like that.
Sure, sure, but you’re writing the screenplays, crafting the material, making it distinctly your own, your vision and it’s not like you’re directing other people’s material, and just shooting it, unless it’s TV.
Yeah, yeah, it’s still writing screenplays, but that’s not the hard work. If you’re looking at ‘Jesse James’ or “Blonde,” that’s Ron Hansen and Joyce Carol Oates who really did the work of creating the characters and the material and all that. I’ve just sort of fallen in love with it, and trying to bring my picture of it—which I, I think is really their picture—to the screen. That’s what I think I’m doing. Maybe it’s mine too, but that’s not the way I think of it when I’m doing it.
Fair. Do you have anything else in the queue? I remember at one point you were adapting Cormac McCarthy’s “Cities On The Plain.”
Yeah. I wanted to do that. I mean, I’ve written or adapted many, many things and tried to do many films that haven’t happened for whatever reason. It’s not easy to get a film made. Maybe there’s a lucky few [that get things made], but often it’s just continuous crushing disappointment. For most of us it’s like, “fuck, why did we even pick this occupation?”
Right, but you don’t think some of this has changed with the advent of streaming like it’s somewhat easier to get a movie made, or at least felt that way in the last three-four years? I mean, “Blonde” is just that, it’s a Netflix movie.
Yeah, well, I don’t think, I don’t think “Blonde” would’ve ever been made if it hadn’t been for Netflix. It’s hard to say, it’s just also who I am. I’ve made a bunch of moves that haven’t made any money. So when, when you look at something like “Blonde,” it’s like a $20 million budget, it’s a period fucking L.A. movie. It just doesn’t make sense.
And it’s NC-17!
Yeah, that was a bit of a surprise, that it got that rating. It was really #MeToo that allowed “Blonde” to happen. It was a gold moment where you had to believe a woman’s perspective no matter what. Whereas before I think people were really uncomfortable with how “Blonde” portrayed certain American sacred cows. And then it became a gold moment where it didn’t matter if they were sacred cows or not, and that’s why it got made, what allowed it to happen in the end.
Here’s the thing, though, it’s not like I’m unsympathetic to their point of view, you know? NC-17 is not a good thing for your film to have, you can’t be on certain billboards and you can’t advertise on certain things and there are all kinds of restrictions that get put on you cause of that rating. So, to get an NC-17 is not good, you know, and it’s not something that I wanted the film to have. Also, I don’t think it’s something that the film deserves, it’s not really reflective of community standards, I think it’s more of a political thing.
Sure, but what does NC-17 really mean on Netflix other than parental controls for kids?
Well, “Blonde” is going to have some kind of theatrical release. I mean, you can’t have a billboard, and…what I don’t understand is why Netflix signed to the MPAA signatory anyway. I mean, there must be some advantage. I just can’t understand why anyone would put themselves under that censorship if they didn’t have to, but… you know, truthfully, I probably shouldn’t speculate on that stuff cause I don’t really [know enough about it.]
So, what can we expect for “Blonde”? What kind of film is it?
“Blonde” is a dream. It’s a dream film, it’s a film for all the unloved children of the world. It’s, it’s about an unwanted child who becomes the most desired woman on the planet. And it’s all from her perspective. It’s trying to create the emotional experience of being her, within her misunderstandings. So we misunderstand the world and the same way that she does when we see the movie. And I think we understand that while we’re watching it, we see all the mistakes that she’s making, but we understand why she’s making them. And we’re the only people that [can understand the why], because nobody else in the story can see what’s going on.
Maybe Whitey, her makeup artist can see it, but nobody else can really understand what’s going on with her. So, the real relationship in the film is between the audience and her, not between her and anybody else.
That sounds like a really lonely place.
Oh my God. Yeah, it’s awful, awful, yeah, it’s a nightmare.
I heard you were actually done with it last summer?
Yeah, but well, I’m still tinkering with it now [laughts] but yeah, it was basically done this time last year, it still had to be mixed and graded and all that sort of stuff. but yeah.
Dominik’s new documentary on Nick Cave and Warren Ellis, “This Much I Know To Be True,” about the aftermath of COVID and being stuck not being able to tour the albums Ghosteen and Carnage, opens today, Wednesday, May 11, as a one-time global event. Check the “This Much I Know To Be True” website to see where it’s playing today near you.