“PEN15” is inherently a series about the awkwardness of your middle school years. The time when puberty is right around the corner, formative social dynamics are experienced practically every day and that line between being a kid and a young adult seemingly finds embarrassment at every turn. It should no surprise then that Sam Zvibleman, the show’s co-creator, director, and a longtime fan of The Playlist, would find me cringing over my own mistakes during our interview.
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Listen, Emmy season is inherently busy, but perhaps admitting to Zvibleman that I’d only seen the second season of the Gotham Award-winning, Emmy nominated and now two-time WGA Award-nominated series wasn’t the best idea. For those who haven’t watched the breakout Hulu program, the fact I’m genuinely looking forward to catching up with the first 10 episodes is the best compliment I could give. And that’s not surprising considering how universal the story of Maya and Anna (played by adults and show co-creators Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle, respectively) two awkward seventh graders, has turned out to be.
“I had a woman from South Africa tell me that ‘PEN15’ was her story,” Zvibleman reveals. “I think because we didn’t have internet and social media really to have all these influences and seeing different ways of living, we heard the same music, the same movies, same clothes. So it was just kind of the strange alternate kind of science fiction universe that we all shared together somehow, which is a big reason why the show is popular I think.”
Over the course of our interview, Zvibleman also discusses the importance of the “real” young actors, the show’s family connections, and why we’re still waiting for the last seven episodes.
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The Playlist: Belated congratulations on “PEN15,” season two.
Sam Zvibleman: Thank you. Thank you very much, man. I was so excited to talk to you. I’ve read The Playlist for like 15 years.
Oh, wow. That’s awesome.
Yeah. So it was very cool to hear that you were taking the time to talk through with me.
Of course! And now comes the embarrassing part. In complete honesty, I have not seen season one, but I did watch all of season two. But, a god friend says there was a bit of a tonal change between the two seasons. If true, what spurred that?
It depends if they like the tone better or worse and that will determine how I answer.
Well, I liked the tone, no matter what. They did as well. [Laughs.]
O.K. then. We talked about needing to evolve the show. Now, what specifically that meant, we never put a fine point on. Personally, I felt that this gimmick of older women with age-appropriate kids and liking boys while extremely funny we needed more. And there was so much more to mine from the experience of these characters, but knowing that we actually just had to eventually get past the insane visual of it and actually love these characters and get to know them and get to know their family lives. And then in the writing, they just come up against some heavier life stuff. So, the tone sort of, because we take these characters really seriously and we’re not laughing at them, we’re more in their shoes. The tone gets a little darker. And the style of the show, I was sort of looking for a little bit more of those deeper emotional moments and some the behavioral stuff and focusing on the naturalness of the performances as opposed to kind of a quick cutting joke, joke, joke, joke, clever line thing that you’d see in most TV comedy. [I] sort of wanted to showcase honesty and truth. And even if it sometimes came at the expense of a funny joke, a laugh-out-loud joke. Personally, that was a little bit scary for me because of how loved the first season was by our fans. So, I just had to tell myself, “This season two is just like a new album. It’s like Kid A [by Radiohead] or something, it’s just going to be a little different.” And I remember driving to set each morning and sort of making this little silent prayer to our audience saying, “Please, please, accept this, please, please trust me.” Having no idea that it would work out, but it seems to have been all right.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but some of the surreal moments weren’t as prevalent in season one, is that correct?
Honestly, to me, it feels like we were. I feel like it’s about the same. I feel like maybe it was a little even more grounded in season two, but there’s, there’s like 300 scenes. So, we love those surreal moments, but when you eventually get through all of season one tonight – I’m just f**king with you – I think that that’s sort of been there from the beginning and it’s something that we’d love. Maya and I love Miyazaki films. So, there’s always a little bit of that strange, magical realism that we can’t help but sneak in there.
Well, my friend is totally wrong about that and will pay for misinforming me. [Laughs.]
Yeah. Tell him or her, how pissed I am.
How did the slight change in tone affect the young actors on the show?
It wasn’t a conversation that I had to have. The young actors were so brilliant, especially in season two. It’s a funny show, but they really take their work and their craft extremely seriously. And they came to play every day on set and their lines were brilliant. They were all about character. I think that they probably picked that up from Anna and Maya and their approach and watching, being on set, but they knew more about their characters, I felt than even I did. I remember the young actor who plays Sam, Taj Cross, had a question. And I just said, “Well what do you think?” And he had a more brilliant character point of view than I did. Sam is based on me, in the same way Anna and Maya are Anna and Maya. So I sort of got to give that character away to Taj who took it and made it even more interesting, I think. That was really fun to watch.
Were you always hoping to be able to continue the story in season three? Have you guys mapped out multiple seasons?
It was a little bit funky. We shot two halves . We shot seven more episodes, except for the last few days we were shut down by COVID. We already have in the can the next batch of episodes. We had to write all of those episodes before we started shooting. So there’s so much more that people will see eventually.
Have you guys gone back to finish them yet? Or are you guys still waiting?
Well, it’s a little on hold. Anna and Maya, they just had babies. So I don’t know.
In that context, are you worried at all about the young actors growing up faster than what you just shot at all?
You know, the point of view that we’ve always taken is that middle school is such a circus and a freak show that, I remember kids showing up who one day were little boys and then they’re grown-ass men the next day. That’s how fast puberty happened. I feel like we kind of have this out. This beautiful excuse. And, and just to watch that unfold on television is something that we all find fascinating and funny and real.
A number of the storylines seem quite personal. Are there any in particular that are personal to you?
Yeah, definitely. Sometimes we have to give one person’s story to someone else to even out the narrative, but yeah, they are very personal to the point where it feels like a memoir of our growing up. For the second season, something that was very vulnerable for me to explore and that we put into Sam’s storyline is him flirting with potentially getting more popular than his friends. And I remember experiencing that as a middle-schooler where I, at one point, because I was funny, I could move up the social hierarchy or move around it in ways. It was sort of my gift. I sat with the cool kids one day and I just remember the circle slowly closing in around me with chairs being pushed in, and suddenly I was on the outside and having to walk back with my tail between my legs, back to my old friends and wondering what that effect that had on my friends. I know it was a little bit embarrassing. And so I found that it was therapeutic to tell a very small arc of that with Sam the season.
How have your families or their families felt about seeing some of this play out on screen?
Well, I can’t totally speak to their experience. What I can say is one of the best parts about working on the show is that Maya’s mom is played by Maya’s real mom, and something that people also don’t know is her brother Taichi Erskine is one of our editors. So it’s really a family collaboration. And what I find particularly moving is when Maya and her mom are playing out scenes that are from years and years ago when they were different people. I don’t know if you remember the bathtub scene. Maya and her mom, I was stunned. My jaw was on the floor shooting that, observing that. It almost felt like this gesture from Maya by playing out that scene to sort of say, “I see what you were doing back then, and I love you for that.” And that’s not something that we talk about on set, it’s vocalized, but the gesture and the very act of doing it, I find totally moving. And then, having Taichi edit it and find what’s so personal about that family makes it really special.
The three of you are from different parts of the country, correct?
That is correct.
So where are you from specifically?
I’m from a few hundred miles away in St. Louis, Missouri. Maya is West Coast. Maya’s LA and Anna is from the Northeast.
Have there been moments where you’ve all looked at each other and go, “What, that wasn’t something that we did in middle school or high school.” Was there any sort of regional things that surprised you?
Weirdly the strange thing about the show is how people from all over the country and really all over the world relate to stuff that we thought were [very] specific. The only differences are names of grocery stores that were put in that we’ve never heard of,. I had a woman from South Africa tell me that “PEN15” was her story. I think because we didn’t have internet and social media really to have all these influences and seeing different ways of living, we heard the same music, the same movies, same clothes. So it was just kind of the strange alternate kind of science fiction universe that we all shared together somehow, which is a big reason why the show is popular I think.
Your work has earned so much critical acclaim and impressive industry honors for a show that many might have pegged as an underdog on Hulu. How much pressure did that put on you for season two? And was it a relief to be recognized by your peers in the WGA, a second time around?
The only pressure is that thing of “Well, we’re evolving this show a bit and maybe making it a little bit less jokey and a little bit more, giving it some layers and some depth continuing to add upon that and hoping that the people who loved what we did in the first season would come with us on that tonal journey.” The award stuff is fun, but it’s almost like what can you do about it? It’s really nice. How I looked at it as it just kind of speaks to effort. It’s a really hard show to make with probably the tiniest budget of any of these awards shows by far. And, the cast and crew just break themselves, blood, sweat, and tears. So, if anything, I feel like it’s sort of pointing a spotlight on that aspect of it.
Speaking of budget, and if it is that low a budget, how could you afford to license “Gettin’ Jiggy Wit It” by Will Smith? Many of the songs you included in the show are really expensive.
Oh, they are. And so we had to set aside a big chunk of the budget in order to pay Will Smith. [Laughs.]
Why was that so important?
Not much compares to connecting with your past and making something personal, like music. I feel like music is absolutely essential to our show and making it a true time capsule.
No doubt.
I don’t like faking it. You know?
Totally. No one wants sound-alikes. Now that the production has taken this break, have you been able to work on anything else or you’ve just been editing all the other episodes and are ready to finish up?
No, I took a break after the latest season. And then now I am back to writing new stuff totally separate from “PEN15” which has been really great. I just need to stretch other muscles and play in different sandboxes. I’m back to this beautiful creative writing period that feels very free. Even if the stuff will never see the light of the day.
I’ll be shocked if it doesn’t see the light of day. Can I ask if you’re working on something episodic, or is it a feature?
I’m working on a handful of features. I’m such a cinephile. My original love is film and TV’s just really hard. Too much work. I’m kind of getting back to my original passion, which is feature filmmaking. And that’s been a true joy to be able to step into.
“Pen15” seasons one and two are both available on Hulu.