Emmy winner Tim Gunn has had a remarkable 16 years since “Project Runway” became one of the touchstones of reality competition television. A figure in the fashion world for decades, he became a household name alongside “Runway’s” supermodel host Heidi Klum when “Runway” debuted in 2004. Now, following the duo’s departure from the series following its acquisition by Bravo in 2018, Gunn has had the opportunity to have a rare second act. And that venture, “Making the Cut,” appears to be a sizeable hit for Amazon Prime Video.
READ MORE: “Making the Cut” producer on the “force of nature” Naomi Campbell [Interview]
Unlike their previous series, “Making the Cut” takes 12 established fashion designers and gives the winner the opportunity to launch their individual brand on the Amazon Marketplace. The show has been a global venture jumping from Paris to Tokyo and (eventually) to New York. The judges include fashion designer Joseph Altuzarra (a very pleasant surprise), Nicole Richie (true entrepreneur chops), Italian influencer Chiara Ferragni (sadly, the weakest of the bunch), the legendary Carine Roitfeld (the Anna Wintour of France) and, the clear star of the show, Naomi Campbell (makes “Making” must-see TV). And, oh yeah, the winner receives a $1 million cash prize.
“Making the Cut” hasn’t necessarily been at the buzzworthy level of Netflix’s “Tiger King” or some other established competition shows (“Survivor,” “Drag Race”), but it has already outshined the last season of “Runway” and Netflix’s “Next in Fashion.” Gunn took some time last week to chat about the perceived success of the show (Amazon has not released viewership details, but the clothing has been selling out much faster than expected), some of the contestant’s strange choices so far, why he and Heidi chose Amazon over Netflix and the program being an escape during the current coronavirus epidemic.
NOTE: Eliminated contestants for episodes currently available are discussed.
_____
The Playlist: Hey, Tim. How are you doing?
Tim Gunn: Hi Gregory. I’m doing very well. How are you doing?
Listen, I’m doing as well as anyone can during, during this time.
Yeah, these are very challenging times.
Before we talk about the show, a quick question for you. We’ve had a lot of pundits during this crisis proclaiming, “Oh, this is going to change how we see concerts forever. This is going to change how we see sports.” Or whatever. And seeing so many people going outside wearing masks and covering themselves, is it a jump to say that this will change the fashion trends for the next couple of years? Do you feel like this will influence fashion on a general level in the years ahead?
Well, I mean, to be absolutely honest, I certainly have no idea and I don’t think anybody does. But if I can look for a silver lining, I hope that it makes people recalibrate their thinking about what’s important in fashion. And I would love to see a lot of the disdainfully vulgar pricing go away. I mean, it’s ridiculous. You’re spending $4,000 for a pair of jeans? I mean, it’s just absurd. So, I hope that, that all goes away. And I will say a lot of companies in the industry are giving back. They’re making masks and hospital gowns, and that’s a very positive thing. I just hope that people start reflecting upon where we’ve been, anticipating where we can go and come up with some core values that are important and sustainable. That’s my wish.
In a way, vulgar pricing ties in with the consumer versions of all the fashions the designers have to create. I went to check on how the retail versions of each episode’s consumer looks were doing because I’d heard that contestant Johnny Cota’s stripe dress had already sold out. And I was stunned to discover that everything had sold out for the episodes so far.
I mean, I’ll tell you, I’m shocked. I’m really surprised. I mean I thought, “These things will sell out eventually, but it will be weeks if not months.” But everything’s gone. It’s gone within 24 to 48 hours.
That clearly means people are watching. And I have to say, I have friends who hadn’t watched “Runway” in years, who, during this time, have been watching “Making the Cut.” How do you feel about the reaction to the show so far?
Well, I mean, I will tell you, I don’t read comments online. I found years ago, it’s best just to let that be a whole other thing. But I go to the grocery store occasionally, and I live on the Upper West Side of New York. And I only have to travel a block, but a lot of people are watching the show. I mean, the response has been extremely positive. And Heidi and I were nervous about having the show premiere during this global health crisis, just because we felt, “Ooh, this … ” It wasn’t viewership as much as it was “Oh, is this in bad taste to do this now?” But then we thought, “It’s a feel-good show, it’s uplifting, it’s inspiring. It’s a distraction. People need this now.” We’ve actually been happy about it. But I mean, I may be a bit of an ostrich about it, but so far, knock wood, I haven’t heard anything negative, which is not to say that there isn’t, that there aren’t negative comments out there or negative critique. But it’s been very positive and it’s been very gratifying.
When you and Heidi both decided to leave “Runway” you were clearly looking for something new, but what about the Amazon opportunity was so appealing?
I mean, full transparency. We began discussions with Netflix, namely, because Heidi knows a number of the executives there and we had two fantastic meetings. Then, Heidi and I heard from our agents. They’re across the hall from each other at CAA. We heard that Amazon heard that we were in discussion and wanted to meet. And we thought, “O.K., great.” We arrived in Los Angeles. We had the most phenomenal meeting with Jennifer Salke and her team. Heidi and I went out to the parking lot afterward and were giddy. We just said, “Well, this blows everybody else out of the water.” And it wasn’t until further into our discussions with Amazon that they even raised the possibility of a shoppable aspect of the show. They wanted the show independent of that. So it’s really the icing on the cake. But they have been the most phenomenal partners in all of this. I mean, it’s spoiling me because I’m not used to it. I’m used to having to fight and having to persuade and cajole. And they’ve just been the most amazing partners and every idea that they come back with is like an aha moment. “Oh, my goodness. Why didn’t we think of that?” Just a phenomenal group of people and I can’t overstate it.
Was there one thing that you personally wanted in terms of the show that was on your wishlist, the top thing that you really wanted to change and just in terms of the format?
Absolutely, and I’ll tell you what it was. On “Runway,” Heidi and I have such an incredibly separate, distinct roles that we barely interact. And in entering into this new enterprise, at the top of my list was, “I want to do as much with Heidi as possible and vice versa.” We want to spend time together on the show and we certainly achieved that. We love each other’s company. We just have fun together and we can just be ourselves. And I think people are responding to that very positively, that they’re happy to see more of us together.
I was just re-watching an episode last night and I believe you’re always sitting at a table, or nearby, during the deliberations. Feels like something new too.
It is new. It’s definitely new. This is personal for me. I mean, in that capacity, I believe in don’t speak unless spoken to. And Heidi occasionally will call out to me about something. And there’s so much tape from so many cameras that’s not advancing the plot. They’re just not going to leave it in. I mean, it’s not unlike my design studio lounge. I’m with each designer for 10 to 15 minutes minimal, and it looks like I just breezed through, but I don’t. I mean, it’s not that I’m long-winded as much as I ask a lot of questions. But I like being there to support the designers and to be able to answer any questions if there are any. I will tell you this though, during the deliberation, Heidi and I exchange a lot of one-on-one eye contact, and it’s fun. She’ll raise an eyebrow, and I will. She’ll gesture with her eyes.
I know Heidi and Naomi Campbell are very good friends but they had a little back and forth about whether that particular designer who’s getting eliminated in the sixth episode. Were you surprised by the dynamic that Naomi brought to the show?
Well, I mean, I knew from reputation that Naomi is extremely opinionated, which is great. She’s not a shrinking violet. And yes, she and Heidi are very good friends. I actually like the combat. I like seeing the judges not being on the same page. I welcomed that, that the dialogue and the levels of dispute, I think it really helps to examine what needs to be done, what the right thing to do is. And I have to tell you this too, Gregory. On Runway, rarely did I ever agree with the judges, rarely, about who’s going home, or who’s winning. On “Making the Cut,” I never once disagreed and it’s because of the depth of the dialogue and the breadth of it. They really get down to the essence, because they are extremely serious about it. They’re doing a deep dive. They’re not just looking at a veneer and studying the surface. And it meant that at least for me, it was so satisfying to feel, “O.K., this is the right decision. This is the person who should go home, this is the person who should win.” And I attribute that to the qualities of the judges and their interaction. So yeah, I wasn’t bothered by the tiffs. It really helped. It probably helped us get where we needed to be.
Speaking of the judging, a lot of their discussion isn’t about the couture, if you want to call it that, but it’s their frustrations with the consumer looks. It seems that for the designers who struggle, it’s that consumer look that they have a problem wrapping their heads around.
I mean, here’s the issue, really, I think, because I would explore this with my students while I was teaching. In fashion, the two easiest things to design are a tee shirt and a float in a parade. Those are the two easiest things. In between the tee shirt and the float in the parade, are zillions of possibilities. And the challenge is to have something that’s wearable, that’s accessible and that is creative and innovative. How do you do that? It’s very confounding for people. I would say to my students, I don’t care what you design in this class, what you design and what you make, as long as your model can get into a taxi wearing it. It’s hard to do.
One of the contestants, Martha Gottwald, seemed to have issues cutting patterns and somehow still made it on the show. Were you shocked by that at all?
Well, here’s the real deal with Martha. Had she not been able to construct clothing, she would never have been on the show. We only have 12 spots. We have $1 million at stake. We wouldn’t have done that. She was paralyzed by the experience. She found the work and the capacity of the other designers to be very intimidating. She desperately missed her family. She had practically a newborn. So there were a lot of psychological things going on with her, and I think she found that it was easy to blame it on not being able to do the work because she doesn’t possess the skills. But in fact, she does. She just was rendered incapable of executing anything well, but that’s the real truth about Martha, otherwise, she wouldn’t have been there.
In another episode, you seemed very disappointed that Sabato Russo went in a different direction with a dress he had designed that ended up with his elimination. How often do you just want to sort of scream from the rafters, “No, don’t do this!”?
That’s a good way to describe what I want to do. Generally, I hope that the designers and I have enough of a conversation that it doesn’t get to that point, but Sabato really lost himself and that was his downfall. And I’m saying to the designers all the time, “You need to be true to who you are.” And his work is so…I’ll use the word, “spectacular”. It just is. But he really lost himself and paid the price. But also, at this point, at this juncture in Tokyo, we don’t have a lot of designers left.*
*This interview was conducted after episode six of 10 was released.
I went to his website last night because I wanted to look at his work again. I noticed in his most recent collection – clearly, after he’d been on the show – went in a distinctly different direction from his previous work. I don’t know if this is something that you noticed on “Runway,” but does being a contestant on a show like this often push a designer in a more fruitful direction?
I will say this about “Making the Cut” and especially by the time we get to Tokyo, there wasn’t a designer there who didn’t express how much this had enhanced their point of view, this experience had enhanced their point of view as a designer and enhance the work, and with thanks, saying, “I’m so thankful for this experience because this is what it’s done for me.” And it was just hugely gratifying to hear, and quite frankly, a surprise for me. I wasn’t expecting that to happen. And I mean, occasionally on “Runway,” someone would express it, but it was consistent on Making the Cut.
The show has some impressive runway locations this season. Was there one, in particular, that sort of blew you away?
Oh, well, nothing beats the Eiffel Tower. Heidi and I are standing in front of it, and we look over our shoulder to gaze at the tower, and we can both said, “This looks a green screen.” It’s just too good to be true. It was phenomenal. I have to tell you it’s not on the cut [viewers see], but we have two walks on that runway. The first with cameras on sticks and the second with the jib [camera]. And with the camera’s on sticks, Ethan, the digital designer, comes and stands with me, and we look at the monitor together. With the jib, all the designers, all 12 of them and I gathered around the monitor. So we had a very different point of view from the jib. And we were all in tears. It was so incredibly beautiful. We broke down.
Can you tease the finale? Is there anything about it that people should look forward to?
Yes. We were visited by Christine Beauchamp, the president of Amazon Fashion, and she meets with each of the finalists, and it’s quite a stunning series of conversations.
“Making the Cut” releases episodes six and seven on Amazon Prime Video Friday, April 17. The final two episodes will debut on Friday, April 24.